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 League rounds 3.1 and 3.2 voting

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Formats for rounds 3.1 and 3.2 should be
Alara Block. Classic creatures and lands only
57%
 57% [ 4 ]
Alara Block. Rainbow stairwell
14%
 14% [ 1 ]
Extended. Classic creatures and lands only
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
Extended. Rainbow stairwell
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
Classic. Classic creatures and lands only
14%
 14% [ 1 ]
Classic. Rainbow stairwell
14%
 14% [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 7
 

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JMason
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PostSubject: League rounds 3.1 and 3.2 voting   Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:42 pm

Another small change for you here; we always seem to struggle to decide the league format in time for the round to start; well no more, in 2010 we will decide two round formats at a time.

As well as that I'm going to divide the formats into two groups:
group 1 is made up of classic, extended, standard and block.
group 2 is everything else, e.g rainbow stairwell, sealed duplicate etc.

Each quarter year we're going to play first a round from group 1, then a round from group 2 with no repeats.
In quarter 1, round 3.1 is going to be one of the runner up formats from the 2.7 poll, extended, block or classic. round 3.2 will also be one of the runner up formats from the 2.7 poll. I'm also going to specify that if we play block, then it is the most recent complete block, i.e. Alara until Zen block is all released.

A few more things for you to think about when voting. A lot of clan members only have standard card pools, and if we play too many classic cardpool formats then we exclude them. When we do the quarter 2 poll we'll need a list of group 2 formats, so post your ideas in this thread. If you're going to suggest an unusual format then post as much detail as possible so we don't repeat the problems we had deciding what tribes t ban from round 2.7. I'm going to run this poll for 23 days which then gives us a 1 week deckbuilding opportunity before round 3.1begins.

OK, get voting, and please suggest some formats.
JM


Last edited by JMason on Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: League rounds 3.1 and 3.2 voting   Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:18 pm

Suggestion for group 2: duplicate sealed. See TPDC alternate format event organised by Amar . link

We'd either use the same pool they did, or make a new pool, maybe ask Amar or Kingritz for card slection advice.
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PostSubject: Re: League rounds 3.1 and 3.2 voting   Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:08 am

Suggestion for group 2: classic tribal wars without the major tribes.
This time we ban any tribe that has more than X creatures of that type. Obviously someone will have to put some work in to find out what a sensible value for X is, but clearly this approach would easily cut out humans, slivers, soldiers etc. My guess for now is X=10. Unfortunately for changelings that means they are also excluded for being in all those tribes.

What with not all cards being available online it's hard to know how many of certain tribes there are, so if anyone has an up to date list of the creature type counts then please post it.

p.s. We might find this way of banning will not work because Wizard's have revised a lot of creature types, and so the Pirate tribe for instance are also mostly Humans. I'll just hav eto see how far I can get with this once I have time to list the tribes out.
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PostSubject: Re: League rounds 3.1 and 3.2 voting   Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:58 am

2 more formats we have not tried :
60 card singleton
kaleidoscope aka kscope
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PostSubject: Re: League rounds 3.1 and 3.2 voting   Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:41 am

On the unusual tribal idea. We could ban any tribe which has at least one creature which gives benefits to creatures of the same tribe. Slivers for example, or goblins elves soldiers elementals etc etc etc. This way we should have tribes which would never normally see play, like wolves, frog, mutants etc. I'm thinking that this may not include rats though, so maybe they should recieve an honorary banning as they do see quite a bit of play, or almost, in MBC decks. If this idea goes ahead we should spend some time discussing and getting a list of banned decks together. Spirits may also need banning as there is a very good classic build which uses armadillo cloak and a lot of spirits. The idea for me behind this one is to get people building decks and using creatures none of us have seen before, should be fun Smile
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PostSubject: Re: League rounds 3.1 and 3.2 voting   Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:38 am

andymc1 wrote:
On the unusual tribal idea. We could ban any tribe which has at least one creature which gives benefits to creatures of the same tribe. Slivers for example, or goblins elves soldiers elementals etc etc etc. This way we should have tribes which would never normally see play, like wolves, frog, mutants etc. I'm thinking that this may not include rats though, so maybe they should recieve an honorary banning as they do see quite a bit of play, or almost, in MBC decks. If this idea goes ahead we should spend some time discussing and getting a list of banned decks together. Spirits may also need banning as there is a very good classic build which uses armadillo cloak and a lot of spirits. The idea for me behind this one is to get people building decks and using creatures none of us have seen before, should be fun Smile
I'm totally with you as regards seeing unusual tribes, but I'm not sure this is the right way. Surely the defining feature of tribes is to have synergy? Tribes with no synergy aren't really tribes :/ Would you ban Aurochs? Minotaur?
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PostSubject: Re: League rounds 3.1 and 3.2 voting   Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:07 am

Well i havn't really looked into this too deeply regard which tribes will be banned. Banning minotaurs and aurochs seems like a bad idea so yea, this idea won't work. Regarding the synergy though I don't feel you need to have creatures which interact specifically creatures of the same type in your deck to create synergy in a tribal deck. Anyways, some other idea is probably in order. Maybe just get a list together of popular tribes to ban.
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PostSubject: Re: League rounds 3.1 and 3.2 voting   Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:58 am

Well it would be boring if we always agreed on stuff Smile Keep the ideas coming. I have started to make a list of the pauper tribes; it's going to take a bit of work but I can make a script to do it from gatherer and client cardlist extracts and avoid having to type it all in the hard way. I'll post it once I have it.
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PostSubject: Re: League rounds 3.1 and 3.2 voting   Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:29 am

bump.

If we don't get more than 4 votes then I shall start to think the schedule for 2010 is too ambitious before it's even begun. Please vote everyone.
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PostSubject: Re: League rounds 3.1 and 3.2 voting   Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:18 pm

What's the verdict in terms of tribes then? Maybe ask everyone to submit their suggested ban list, any tribes that get multiple votes get insta-ban, other tribes would be entered into some sort of poll for possible banishment Smile

I think as long as the main power houses are removed such as gobbos, slivers, fairies, artifacts(?), Elves etc then we should be OK?
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PostSubject: Re: League rounds 3.1 and 3.2 voting   Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:48 am

The clan have spoken.
Round 3.1 is Alara block
Round 3.2 is Classic Creature Feature (also known as creatures and lands only)
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PostSubject: Re: League rounds 3.1 and 3.2 voting   Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:06 pm

Finally I have crunched the numbers for pauper tribes, and I have the very long list below:

Human,345
Soldier,152
Warrior,139
Wizard,124
Goblin,108
Elf,105
Spirit,101
Zombie,94
Beast,81
Cleric,79
Shaman,77
Elemental,66
Bird,65
Rogue,60
Druid,51
Merfolk,51
Knight,46
Cat,43
Scout,42
Insect,33
Sliver,33
Kithkin,32
Faerie,27
Drake,25
Illusion,23
Ogre,23
Wall,23
Snake,22
Giant,21
Kavu,21
Archer,19
Rat,18
Shapeshifter,18
Treefolk,18
Viashino,17
Berserker,16
Imp,15
Minotaur,15
Mutant,15
Myr,15
Elephant,14
Golem,14
Minion,14
Samurai,14
Scarecrow,14
Wurm,14
Fungus,13
Horror,13
Hound,13
Kor,13
Rebel,13
Skeleton,13
Spider,13
Centaur,12
Construct,11
Dwarf,11
Griffin,11
Lizard,11
Thrull,11
Vedalken,11
Barbarian,10
Fox,10
Nomad,10
Serpent,10
Ally,9
Monk,9
Orc,9
Spellshaper,9
Ape,8
Plant,8
Shade,8
Troll,8
Boar,7
Dryad,7
Fish,7
Frog,7
Nightmare,7
Moonfolk,6
Vampire,6
Wolf,6
Bear,5
Cephalid,5
Crocodile,5
Rhino,5
Zubera,5
Artificer,4
Assassin,4
Bat,4
Cyclops,4
Drone,4
Kobold,4
Mercenary,4
Ninja,4
Pegasus,4
Soltari,4
Thalakos,4
Yeti,4
Advisor,3
Antelope,3
Aurochs,3
Dauthi,3
Gargoyle,3
Hag,3
Nightstalker,3
Salamander,3
Spike,3
Unicorn,3
Wolverine,3
Angel,2
Badger,2
Crab,2
Djinn,2
Flagbearer,2
Goat,2
Homunculus,2
Leech,2
Metathran,2
Mystic,2
Noggle,2
Ox,2
Scorpion,2
Thopter,2
Turtle,2
Weird,2
Worm,2
Wraith,2
Basilisk,1
Camel,1
Demon,1
Efreet,1
Gorgon,1
Harpy,1
Homarid,1
Horse,1
Hyena,1
Jellyfish,1
Juggernaut,1
Kraken,1
Octopus,1
Ouphe,1
Pirate,1
Rabbit,1
Slug,1
Surrakar,1
Anteater,0
Archon,0
Assembly-Worker,0
Atog,0
Avatar,0
Beeble,0
Blinkmoth,0
Bringer,0
Brushwagg,0
Camarid,0
Caribou,0
Carrier,0
Chimera,0
Citizen,0
Cockatrice,0
Coward,0
Deserter,0
Devil,0
Dragon,0
Dreadnought,0
Egg,0
Elder,0
Elk,0
Eye,0
Ferret,0
Gnome,0
Graveborn,0
Hellion,0
Hippo,0
Hydra,0
Incarnation,0
Kirin,0
Lammasu,0
Leviathan,0
Lhurgoyf,0
Licid,0
Manticore,0
Masticore,0
Monger,0
Mongoose,0
Nautilus,0
Nephilim,0
Ooze,0
Orb,0
Orgg,0
Oyster,0
Pentavite,0
Pest,0
Phelddagrif,0
Phoenix,0
Pincher,0
Prism,0
Reflection,0
Rigger,0
Sand,0
Saproling,0
Satyr,0
Serf,0
Sheep,0
Siren,0
Slith,0
Spawn,0
Specter,0
Sphinx,0
Splinter,0
Sponge,0
Squid,0
Squirrel,0
Starfish,0
Survivor,0
Tetravite,0
Triskelavite,0
Volver,0
Whale,0
Wombat,0
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PostSubject: Re: League rounds 3.1 and 3.2 voting   Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:09 pm

Since tribes with less than 5 creatures are unusable, we really have the 85 pauper tribes below.

Human,345
Soldier,152
Warrior,139
Wizard,124
Goblin,108
Elf,105
Spirit,101
Zombie,94
Beast,81
Cleric,79
Shaman,77
Elemental,66
Bird,65
Rogue,60
Druid,51
Merfolk,51
Knight,46
Cat,43
Scout,42
Insect,33
Sliver,33
Kithkin,32
Faerie,27
Drake,25
Illusion,23
Ogre,23
Wall,23
Snake,22
Giant,21
Kavu,21
Archer,19
Rat,18
Shapeshifter,18
Treefolk,18
Viashino,17
Berserker,16
Imp,15
Minotaur,15
Mutant,15
Myr,15
Elephant,14
Golem,14
Minion,14
Samurai,14
Scarecrow,14
Wurm,14
Fungus,13
Horror,13
Hound,13
Kor,13
Rebel,13
Skeleton,13
Spider,13
Centaur,12
Construct,11
Dwarf,11
Griffin,11
Lizard,11
Thrull,11
Vedalken,11
Barbarian,10
Fox,10
Nomad,10
Serpent,10
Ally,9
Monk,9
Orc,9
Spellshaper,9
Ape,8
Plant,8
Shade,8
Troll,8
Boar,7
Dryad,7
Fish,7
Frog,7
Nightmare,7
Moonfolk,6
Vampire,6
Wolf,6
Bear,5
Cephalid,5
Crocodile,5
Rhino,5
Zubera,5
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PostSubject: Re: League rounds 3.1 and 3.2 voting   Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:32 pm

OK, now we have the numbers, not guaranteed correct, good enough to discuss. Here are some options:

Banning by headcount: if we were to use my earlier suggestion we'd ban the top 60 tribes, which is obviously not right. If we banned everything down to Slivers we'd lose the top 21 tribes, and still have kithkin, faeries and illusions which are very strong tribes. It's quite a surprise how few creatures some of the best tribes have comparatively. I think I would ban everything down to Illusions (25 tribes), leaving 60 lesser tribes to choose from. One thing to bear in mind is that many creatures from the lesser tribes also have one of the banned creature types, making the true number available lower than at first sight.


Banning by poll: Another thing we could do is run some kind of poll on which tribes to ban. I don't know if we could do that on the forum with 85 choices, i imagine not.

Banning by benefit: this was Andy's suggestion, and it again would require a list of creatures to be drawn up that have effects on other creatures of the same type. Lots of work for somebody, and not guaranteed to handicap the best tribes either.

Expert panel: In effect this is what we did before, with myself, wildman and empty_one trying to thrash out a ban policy. As you know that didn't end very well, and we didn't ban anything. Maybe anothe rpanel would do a better job?

Change the rules: one of the problems is that you are able to throw 40 elves, goblins or slivers into a deck and win because every non-land you draw is just more gas. What we could say is that you must have exactly 20 of your tribe and no more, forcing you to dilute the tribe with other themes.

I'm not especially thrilled by any of those choices, but if the clan vote to do tribal wars with bannings during 2010 I will probably favour banning the top 25 on my list.
So what do you all think?
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PostSubject: Re: League rounds 3.1 and 3.2 voting   Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:15 am

I just discovered another pauper draft tool we could use: Fable's draft tool. This is fantastic because not only does it support these card sets for drafting: "Alara_Reborn",
"Betrayers_of_Kamigawa","Champions_of_Kamigawa","Coldsnap","Conflux","Darksteel","Dissension",
"Eventide","Fifth_Dawn","Future_Sight","Guildpact","Lorwyn","Magic_10", "Mirrodin","Morningtide",
"Planar_Chaos","Ravnica","Saviors_of_Kamigawa","Shadowmoor","Shards_of_Alara","Tenth","Time_Spiral",
"Zendikar",
it also supports cube draftting from a predefined cube, and cube drafting from a cube cardlist we decide and upload.
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PostSubject: Re: League rounds 3.1 and 3.2 voting   Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:52 pm

I know you're all bored with the tribal wars banning topic, but I am a nerd and I needed to work out what remains if you ban the top 25 tribes, therefore shrinking some other tribes where creatures have multiple types. You are left with the 37 tribes below, totaling around 320 creatures. I don't know if that's enough to make an interesting format. I notice that Fungus and Rat are represented, and I imagine they might be a lot more powerful than some others. Comments please.

Ape,5
Berserker,5
Centaur,6
Construct,11
Dryad,6
Dwarf,9
Elephant,11
Fish,6
Fungus,11
Giant,9
Golem,14
Griffin,11
Horror,12
Hound,10
Imp,14
Kavu,20
Lizard,11
Minotaur,8
Mutant,6
Myr,15
Ogre,9
Orc,6
Plant,6
Rat,13
Samurai,5
Scarecrow,14
Serpent,10
Shade,6
Shapeshifter,17
Skeleton,10
Snake,9
Spider,13
Thrull,10
Troll,6
Viashino,6
Wall,21
Wurm,13
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